Monday, February 09, 2015

Is this insightful, hilarious, pathetic -- or all three?

... and I'm asking about Fr. Z's comments as much as anything ...

Fr. Z, "What on earth is Pope Francis up to and why?" (Fr. Z's Blog, February 9, 2015), commenting on Andrea Gagliarducci at his weekly Monday Vatican post (Fr. Z's comments in red, his emphasis in bold):
The week that begins today and ends with the creation of 20 new cardinals may represent the turning point of Pope Francis’ pontificate....

Before the arrival of Pope Francis, the main themes of discussion in the Church have had solid theological roots. But even the question concerning the pastoral care of divorced and civilly remarried Catholics, as well as for homosexual couples – both of which were the object of a heated debate at the last Synod of Bishops – are in the end based on theological foundations, and deal with the application of doctrine. Moreover, even the criticisms aimed at the pope’s plan for curial reform – the other issue at currently at stake in this pontificate – are founded on theological and juridical grounds.

Nevertheless, Pope Francis demonstrates that he is moving on completely different grounds. It is not by chance that one of his favourite quotes about ecumenism is taken from the conversation between Bl. Paul VI and the Patriarch of Costantinople, Athenagoras: “If we were to close ourselves off in a room together and leave the theologians outside, we would accomplish ecumenism in one hour.” In similar fashion, leaving theological discussions aside, Pope Francis wants to propose a model of a Church that evangelizes through attraction, and not because of the strength of its concepts. [At first glance, this seems like madness. On the other hand, consider that, under the onslaught of the dictatorship of relativism and the destruction of education resulting in the loss of reasoning skills along with wide-spread ignorance, people can’t or don’t accept reasoned arguments anymore. Gorgias has won. We have to hold up shiny objects in front of people’s eyes, and rattle them as a bunch of keys before a fussing baby. Is that too harsh? I have to exaggerate to get my point across. So, Francis might be on to something.]

Pope Francis’ choices in two consistories mirror this intention. Beyond choosing a few candidates with strong institutional ties, Pope Francis has selected as cardinals mainly bishops whose primary interest is not found in some or other theological position, but in pastoral practice. Pope Francis’ Church bypasses theological discussion and aims at going straight to the heart of the people. [I think that that distinction of “theological” versus “pastoral” is flawed, but…. In any event, this is why our sacred liturgical worship of God is pivotal in any effort we undertake in evangelization or new evangelization.]
And much, much more >>

My head hurts.




"... a model of a Church that evangelizes through attraction..."


We may already have the year's Winner in the Category of 'Most Severely Lacking in Self-Awareness.'

Catholic Mission


Dogma and theology have 'evolved' for Fr.John Zuhsdorf.So why the surprise?

February 9, 2015

Response to Fr.John Zuhlsdorf's article on extra ecclesiam nulla salus

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf interprets Vatican Council II with Marchetti's theory so the Council for him is ambigous and a break with extra ecclesiam nulla salus-1

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf interprets Vatican Council II with Marchetti's theory so the Council for him is ambigous and a break with extra ecclesiam nulla salus - 2

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf interprets Vatican Council II with Marchetti's theory so the Council for him is ambigous and a break with extra ecclesiam nulla salus - 3


February 9, 2015
We now have heresy being supported by the magisterium.There is also an irrational interpretation of Vatican Council II

February 9, 2015
Pope John Paul II also used the Marchetti irrationality to create a new theology in the Catholic Church

February 9, 2015
The Letter of the Holy Office is irrational and has no magisterial precedent for this new doctrine

February 9, 2015
Thomas Aquinas affirms the tradtional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
-Lionel Andrades



I'll go with both pathetic and hilarious. Fr. Z seems to have stuck his head back in the sand, as far as the Pope goes. For awhile he seemed to be speaking more and more strongly about what the Pope says and does. His comments here certainly indicate he's the Pope's man after all. My opinion.

Raider Fan


Dear Doc. Raider Fan has, several times, written in here that Cardinal Kapser is a heretic and so R.F. wanted to take a moment to retract that public accusation and to publicly apologise to Cardinal Kasper.

Cardianl Kasper is not likely a heretic at all even though he may have written material that seems heretical.

Mr. Larson was instrumental in getting this apologizer to see the truth:

The Priest who heard my Confession told me to drop the condemnations and replace them with prayers for him.

Thanks for the brief thread hijack

Pertinacious Papist



Your caution is well-marked. In fact, what makes an eminent figure such as Cardinal Kasper so dangerous is that he knows so well what orthodoxy is. His book, Mercy, is reportedly flawless in that regard -- or nearly so. Yet that allows those who see this to drop their guard about what he says when he is addressing liberal academic audiences and the liberal media in Boston or the liberal bishops in Germany. There he sounds like a prelate intent on radically revisioning how the Church views morals, if not faith. That may not be the same thing as heresy, but it may represent a wholesale capitulation to liberal "politically correct" thinking, which has the predictable effect of undermining the confidence of the faithful in the laws of the Church.

When St. Paul withstood St. Peter to his face in Antioch, it was not in opposition to errors of doctrine, as Larson observes, but lack of spine in the face of the "politically correct" thinking of his own day. That, too, might have had devastating consequences for the faithful of that time, had it not been for St. Paul's intervention.

Kind regards, + PP



Fr. Zuhadorf is not ever going to say anything critical of the pope. EVER. He's stated many times on his blog that he survived the seminary by keeping his mouth shut and pretending he didn't notice certain things. He also has a really great assignment and pushing too hard will get him sent to a parish in Nowheresville.



Hasn't this been the pastoral strategy of our prelates for the past 50 years, namely, emphasizing "experience" and neglecting the serious intellectual arguments in favor of our faith? Is it that people aren't convinced by an intellectual approach, or that an intellectual approach has not been tried since the 40s?

Raider Fan


You know, if Pope Francis resigns and appoints Brian Williams as his replacement, RF may have to reconsider his contrition



Just a thought,

Pope John XXIII claimed that there were no more theological controversies;his council wasn't therefore to resolve theological controversies.

Pope Francis doesn't want to get stuck in a theological straight jacket, in part because he believes that one's actions speak louder than one's theological pedigree.

St. Francis de Sales tells us that there are people who, outwardly, appear to be holy but who don't have devotion to Our Lord in their hearts.

Pope Benedict XVI (of blessed memory) wrote once that all true theology and Christology had to begin on the knees, or not at all.

Final thought: I find Pope Francis un-nerving because I think that the Liturgy is an essential part of evangelization, and he evidently doesn't.



I vote insightful.

c matt


So PF is a salesman, and his latest pitch is essentially a bait and switch? Or, at least, we can hope for the switch part - I am not so certain.

Dark Horse


Pray for the converstion of the Pope to the Cathlic faith.