Thursday, February 11, 2016

"Has the Church Effectively Abandoned the Great Commission?" - The Mark Shea and Christopher Ferrara debate (video)

The monthly men's Argument of the Month Club (AOTM), hosted in the basement of St. Augustine's Catholic Church in St. Paul, MN, regularly draws huge crowds. Crowds of men. Certainly part of the draw is the ample food (lots of barbecue) and beer. But the more significant fact is that men are drawn to serious intellectual questions concerning the Church and the Catholic Faith.

Recently AOTM hosted a debate between Christopher Ferrara (right) and Mark Shea (left) on the hot-button question "Has the Church Effectively Abandoned the Great Commission?" And AOTM has decided, for the first time ever, to publish a video of the debate: HERE it is, with a brief introduction by Kent Wuchterl, the President of AOTM, who is just a regular guy who likes to shoot some of his videos in his garage (not to worry: the garage wasn't the venue for the debate). Enjoy. And DONATE something, if you feel so led. It's a good cause.

[Hat tip to Sir A.S.]


Anonymous said...

Ferrari was commanding but also awfully wound up.

Shea's whole response boiled down to a mildly condescending "Yes, but com' on, you're way too uptight."

Intriguing to watch.

(And to witness a Shea who is far less glib and combative in person than online, btw. I'll give him for that.)

Traditionalists want to engage on a level that stresses that Truth matters, and those on board with the modern Church simply don't really care about particulars as long as were a'll in the same room talking in vague spiritualities that are assumed to gradually lead to being better. Or if they do care, the show virtually no passion for such.

Shea also stands as suggestive evidence that people who begin heavy reading in modern Church documents end up under their spell and sounding stylistically just like them. Ugh and double ugh.

The last question on legalism was especially telling. It looks like all of preconciliar Catholicism falls under the definition of 'Legalism' by the newer standards (maybe the Pope should have Chris Brown sing his "Don't Judge Me" for the next synod. ). The changes taking place are ones where emphasis is quickly altering the substance underneath any words. Two very different ways of understanding "Love God and do as you please" were on display. Ferrara represented the historic Church and Shea represented the last several popes. The more recent camp must pride itself on never putting a period on a sentence, and dismissing absolutes as absolutely lacking in pastoralism.

The differences make for an impasse.

PS. 'Grace perfects nature" is so over-invoked it needs to be temporarily retired.

PPS. Is it too much to ask someone to slip M.S. at least a tie clip?

Pertinacious Papist said...

Dear Anonymous. Great comments. Especially the tie clip.

Chuck Martelowski said...

"The differences make for an impasse."

Precisely. Obviously. So much so that the motives of anyone arguing the opposite, "big tent" theory of Catholicism, are questionable and probably devious in intent.

The fork in the road goes back to the days of Bergson, Blondel, de Lubac, and Chardin, if not to those of Luther himself.

Anonymous said...

Lord, the aftermath of this debate has me belatedly hysterical. Can someone, anyone, please tell me one significant insight Henri De Luba brought to the the table, and why it matters?

Catholic Mission said...

Tear the Vatican Docment on the Jews and throw it in the dustbin says Chris Ferrara

Pertinacious Papist said...

Thanks for the link, Lionel.