So he produced a podcast with a recording of himself reading the Roman Canon in Latin using the 1962 Missale Romanum, "Learning the Roman Canon in Latin for Seminarians" (WDTPRS, August 19, 2010).
He also put in a few little bits from the Novus Ordo version of the Canon as well, because, he explains:
"I am a little concerned that using Latin is going to be segregated sharply into the traditional form of Mass rather than in the Novus Ordo. People might be tempted to say, "If you want Latin, go to that Mass". That is one reason why I object to calling the traditional form or Extraordinary Form, simply "the Latin Mass".Related
Latin is also the language of the Novus Ordo.
A reader kindly sent us a link to Sancta Missa, a major site with online tutorials on the Extraordinary Form of the Mass for priests, servers, rubrics of the 1962 Missale Romanum, music, the liturgical year, and more -- so far in French as well as English.
http://www.sanctamissa.org/
ReplyDeleteRemember "Good-bye, Mr. Chips?" In the book, at least, Mr. Chips long refused to use the new "Classical" pronunciation of Latin. That book was set circa World War I. Before the linguists worked out their reconstruction of the so-called "classical" pronunciation, everyone for several centuries pronounced Latin as the Church pronounced it.
ReplyDelete"Conversational Latin for Oral Proficiency" (3rd edition)by John C. Traupman, published by Bolchazy-Carducci Publishers, Inc. in 2004 has a summary of both the "Classical Method" and the "Late Latin Method."
"Latin is the languag of the NO also"
ReplyDelete-For about the 10 parishes in the world that offer it. i say, keep the distinction. Send those who want latin to the Traditional Mass and give them access to their patrimony, the Mass that nourished the saints through the ages.
Functional pronunciation of Church Latin can be learned in about 15 minutes. Use English consonants and Spanish vowels and follow a few simple rules such as soft c's and g's (chip and gip) before i, e, and dipthongs. Ae and oe are pronounced like the ay of hay. The stress is on the second to last syllable (penult) when the final vowel is long and on the third to last (antepenult) when it is not. If the vowels aren't marked, don't worry about it; most people pre-V2 didn't pay much attention to that anyway.
ReplyDeleteThis much alone will get you as close as most priests in the good old days ever came to getting it completely right.
Sorry purists, that's pretty much the way it was but we did have the advantage of hearing the Latin so that we could imitate the pronunciation.
If you were used to hearing an Irishman pronounce the Latin, it took a few minutes to catch on to what a choir of French monks might be singing.
I appreciate the comments of the immediately preceding "Anonymous," particularly with a view to encourage those otherwise shy about taking the plunge into vocalizing liturgical Latin.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I think the opportunity to actually hear the Latin spoken makes a significant difference in learning it, particularly with tricky parts of the Canon of the Mass, as Fr. Z. points out, which might be navigated with some trepidation armed only with general rules of pronunciation.
The main point would be that it's really not all that hard. Jump in. You'll find you can swim in no time. You won't drown!
ReplyDeleteAre these seminarians helpless? Any Latin textbook will contain a guide to pronunciation. Toss your 6,469 Balthazar library into the dumpster and buy one.
ReplyDeletePerfect pronunciation is not a requirement anyway. How many priests pronounce their native language flawlessly? Then again, I have witnessed masses by African and eastern European priests offering the NO in English and ninety nine percent of what they said was unintelligible. No matter -- the NO is mostly unintelligible anyway.
ReplyDeleteKind of cuts the argument for mass in the native language down to size, doesn't it? In this modern age of globalism and one-worldism, "native language" is an increasingly dicey term, what with Ugandan, Chinese, and Mexican priests offering mass in butchered English. Argues for one common, universal language. No stupid, not esparanto -- LATIN!!
Lastly, may I suggest the following readily available Latin textbook: "Latin Grammar" by Cora Carroll Scanlon and Charles L Scanlon. It offers itself as "grammar, vocabularies, and exercises in preparation for the reading of the missal and breviary," and comes from a better time than this.
ReplyDeleteRemember, seminarians, Joe and Tammy Sixpack sitting in the pew with their palms upward are not exactly in a position to criticize your pronunciation. Thanks to the wisdom and foresight of the leaders of their Church, they know more about the proper pronunciation of the Klingon language than the Latin.
Ralph, Not just any Latin grammar will explain the Late Latin/Church Latin pronunciation. In the general effort to be "with it" even Catholic schools have gone over to the "Waynee, Weedee, Weekee" (Veni, vidi, vici)school, which would lead one to think that "Salve Regina" might be pronounced "Salway Re-gea-na" or something equally ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that seminarians are looking for help suggests that either their seminaries are not requiring them to learn the language of the Church or that even the seminaries have given in to the "Classical Pronunciation"
Anon,
ReplyDeleteI have heard "agnus dei" pronounced as "oggnus day", "anyoos day-ee", and even "agg-nuss day", and I can't say that I minded much, because it occurred in a pre-V2 gregorian mass, and the main thing was that the priests were not saying "lamm uh Godd" while three quarters of the congregation were still sucking face and flashing V signs in the afterglow of the greeting of peace.
In most professions, you are lucky if you receive any training at all. In mine, the usual managerial stratagem is to throw the "valued resources" into the pool and judge their ability to flounder. Alas, sometimes that's the only way -- especially if resistance comes in the form of passive-aggressive foot dragging over minor matters.
Peace and face suction to one and all!
Ralph,Actually, "anyoos day-ee" is very close to how my teachers told us to pronounce the phrase- "gn" like the "ni" in onion. (Not "Mag-ni-ficat" but "Man-nyi-ficat."
ReplyDeleteI remember an old priest who would dismiss his server for saying "Et cum SpiriTU-TU-O" instead of "Et cum SPIritu TUo." God probably didn't mind where the server put the stress but that old priest wasn't allowing any slacking.
The stress that hardly anyone got right was "cirCUMdabo" in the 'Lavabo.' Most said "circumDAbo." But, as you say, the main thing was that Latin added dignity to the proceedings and helped to keep the priest from fiddling with the liturgy.