John Hick claims that "very few Catholics would dream of affirming this today (the doctrine of
extra ecclesiam nulla salus, or no salvation outside the Church), and most who are asked about it only find it embarassing." I say it depends on which Catholics you ask, those informed by liberal
telenewsmagspeak, or those informed by an understanding of Catholic teaching.
Read more.
FR. FRANCESCO GIORDANO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
ReplyDeleteThe Italian diocesan priest Fr. Francesco Giordano studying at the Holy Cross University, Rome and working for his doctorate on the subject extra ecclesiam nulla salus says he affirms the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.The ex cathedra dogma says all non Catholics, specifying, Jews, Protestants and Orthodox Christians needing to formally enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell, which has fire.
One can affirm Cantate Domino which indicates everyone with no exception, de facto needs to enter the Church and, at the same time believe de jure; in principle, a non Catholic can be saved implicitly (baptism of desire etc) and it would be known only to God.
However Fr. Giordano’s position on 1) Fr. Leonard Feeney and 2) Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II is not clear. He seems to contradict the dogma on these two points. Though, he told me at the Church Santa Maria di Nazareth, Boccea, Rome that he affirms Cantate Domino.
Fr. Giordano, who has studied at the University of Chicago, is a young priest fluent in English and Italian. He received his Licentiate from the University of St. Thomas Aquinas, Rome and the subject of his thesis there was outside the church there is no salvation.
Like St. Thomas Aquinas if one uses the defacto-dejure analysis it is possible to hold the ‘rigorist interpretation’ of the dogma and also affirm the baptism of desire (Council of Trent) and so not be considered a heretic. It does not have to be an either-or position i.e. the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or the baptism of desire.
Fr. Giordano believes Cantate Domino is compatible with Vatican Council II, Catechism of the Catholic Church and other Magisterial documents.
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http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/06/fr-franccesco-giordano-affirms-cantate.html#links
THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF- Fr.George Puthoor
ReplyDeleteSecond Catholic priest in Rome affirms Cantate Domino, Council of Florence, on extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the church there is no salvation)
A second priest in Rom within a few weeks affirms Cantate Domino, Council of Florence pointing out that there is no baptism of desire that we can personally know of.
A Rossiminian priest from South India Fr.George Puthoor said yesterday, Sunday morning, that there is no baptism of desire that we can know of.
He was speaking with me at the Basilica Santi Ambrogio e Carlo, Via del Corso, Rome where he was to offer Holy Mass in Italian at 12 p.m on Trinity Sunday.He gave me permission to quote him on this blog.
Since the cases of non-Catholic saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance are de facto unknown to us and can only be accepted in principle it does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus he observed.
If there is no case of the baptism of desire or implicit faith that we know of then Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma Cantate Domino.
The secular media hype and those of the liberals have claimed that Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II has changed church teaching with refrence to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Their claim is that every one does not have to enter the Church since there could be non Catholics saved with invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.This is the claim of Wikipedia on the Internet, Catholic Answers and the Pontifical Universities and seminaries in Rome and abroad.They could quote Pope John Paul II on ‘silent apostasy’ in the Church, as if, they are not a part of it.
So when EWTN says everyone does not have to enter the Church to avoid Hell it is irrational. Since EWTN implies the baptism of desire is de facto known to us.
There is also no Magisterial text to support this position.
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http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/06/there-is-no-baptism-of-desire-that-we.html#links
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ReplyDeleteSince we do not know any case of a person saved in invincible ignorance Fr. George Puthoor is getting rid of another modernist sacred cow- the lie about a priest, Leonard Feeney.
When Fr.Leonard Feeney said that there is no baptism of desire (that we know of) he was correct. There is no de facto baptism of desire that we can know of because of the very nature of baptism of desire. It is de facto only for God and never de facto known to us.
Fr.Leonard Feeney taught: everyone needed the baptism of water (given to adults with Catholic Faith) for salvation – and there were no exceptions, de facto.
He was affirming Cantate Domino. So how could he be excommunicated for heresy?
The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 refers to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible’ teaching. The dogma Cantate Domino indicates all Jews in Boston ( and other non Catholics) need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.
With Vatican Council II and Fr.Leonard Feeney ‘out of the way’ we are back to the centuries-old intrpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
The centuries old teaching of the popes and saints is affirmed by the Catechism of the Catholic Church 846.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church 846(Outside the Church no Salvation) says all people need to enter the Church as ‘through a door’. This does not conflict with CCC846 also saying all those who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church i.e. there are those 1) saved explicitly with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water and there are those saved 2) implicitly through the baptism of desire etc. and which is known only to God.
Fr. George Puthoor is the second Catholic priest in Rome who within a few weeks has affirmed Cantate Domino, which the Church has not retracted through any Magisterial document.. Earlier Fr. Francesco Giordano an Italian diocesan priest said the same.
Unlike these Catholic priests, the American sedevacantists Most Holy Family Monastery, NY, assume that the baptism of desire is known to us in the present times. They seem unaware that it can only be accepted in principle. It can only be a concept for us and real for God. So it does not contradict Cantate Domino. The sedevacantists reject the baptism of desire. This is heresy. They could be correct though, in saying that Catholic clergy, educational institutions and websites are in heresy and general apostasy on the issue of outside the church there is no salvation. .Since they deny Cantate Domino because they believe, like the sedevacantists, in a de facto baptism of deny known to us personally.
-Lionel Andrades
E-mail:lionelandrades10@gmail.com
WILL GERRY MATATICS LEAVE SEDEVACANTISM ?
ReplyDeleteGerry Matatics has communicated to us that he is in full agreement on sedevacantism and the salvation dogma. That is to say, Gerry holds the sedevacantist position and also agrees that is the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church that the Catholic Faith and the Sacrament of Baptism are absolutely necessary for salvation with no exceptions for “baptism of desire”- from the website of the Most Holy Family Monastery.
I Lionel Andrades wish to communicate to all that I am ‘in full agreement with the salvation dogma’. I agree to the ‘infallible teaching of the Catholic Church that Catholic Faith and the Sacrament of Baptism are absolutely necessary for salvation’, and there are no ‘ exceptions for ’ a de facto, known to us in the present times, “baptism of desire”.
However I am a member of the Catholic Church,faithful to His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI and his predecessor popes and I am not a sedevacantist
In 2005 apologist Gerry Matatics , Founder and President, Biblical Foundations International http://www.gerrymatatics.org/ ,did not know there was an alternative.
Now I am saying that the baptism of desire in its very nature is not an exception to the dogma, since it cannot be defacto known to us ever ; we do not know anyone on earth saved with the baptism of desire ,invincible ignorance etc.
De facto every adult with no exception needs to enter the Catholic Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.
De jure in principle, as a possibility known only to God, a non Catholic can be saved with the baptism of desire or invincible ignorance in the manner God wants.We do not know any de facto cases. So it does not contradict the dogma Cantate Domino.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/06/will-gerry-matatics-leave-sedevacantism.html#links
Question: OK so are you saying that anyone who is not Catholic is going to Hell?
ReplyDeleteLionel: Do you mean de facto or hypothetically?
De facto everyone on earth needs to be a Catholic, with Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to go to Heaven and avoid Hell. (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence, Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II etc).
Hypothetically; as a concept, in principle, a person can be saved with implicit salvation (baptism of desire etc) and it will be known only to God.
De facto we do not know any case of a person saved with the baptism of desire etc.
So are you saying that anyone who is not Catholic is going to Hell?
De facto; in reality, when I meet a non Catholic, I know he is oriented to Hell unless he converts into the Catholic Church.
De jure (in principle), a person can be saved in invincible ignorance etc and it would be known only to God.
-Lionel Andrades
E-mail:lionelandrades10@gmail.com
Saturday, October 15, 2011
ReplyDeleteCATHOLIC CULTURE REJECTS VATICAN COUNCIL II, DENIES DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS AND ASKS FOR DONATIONS
To knowingly reject an infallible teaching is a mortal sin. Catholics who donate would not have to go for Confession?
The President of Catholic Culture Jeffrey Mirus will not affirm the dogma Cantate Domino ,Council of Florence and neither will be affirm Vatican Council II in accord with the dogma.(1)Catholic priests in Rome who offer the Novus Ordo Mass in Italian have endorsed Cantate Domino and Vatican Council II and other Magisterial documents in agreement with the dogma(2).
Jeffrey Mirus is also contradicted by Catholic priests here who say there is no case of the baptism of desire known to us(3).To reject the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus claiming it is contradicted by those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire is heresy.
He misinterprets Vatican Council II and misleads Catholics with the report on the Internet 'Tragic Errors of Fr.Leonard Feeney'.- Lionel Andrades
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ReplyDelete1.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2011
CATHOLIC CULTURE PROVIDES A DEFINITION OF EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-provides-definition-of.html
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2011
Catholic Culture suggests those who know about the Church and yet do not enter is the only ordinary means of salvation and these cases are known to us
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-suggests-those-who.html
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2011
CATHOLIC CULTURE SUGGESTS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE OR THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE ARE EXPLICITLY KNOWN
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-suggests-that-those.html
Trinity Communications of Jeff Mirus and Catholic Culture is a legal entity that is spreading falsehood about the Catholic Faith.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/09/trinity-communications-is-legal-entity.html
2.
Friday, October 7, 2011
LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html
TUESDAY, AUGUST 9, 2011
FR.TULLIO ROTONDO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/frtullio-rotondo-affirms-cantate-domino.html#links
WEDNESDAY, JULY 20, 2011
CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS IS DE FIDE AND NOT CONTRADICTED BY VATICAN COUNCIL II- Fr. Nevus Marcello O.P
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/cantate-domino-council-of-florence-on.html
SATURDAY, JULY 16, 2011
BRAZILIAN PRIEST SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/brazilian-priest-says-vatican-council.html#links
3.
Wednesday, August 10, 2011
CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME AGREE WITH FR.LEONARD FEENEY: THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/catholic-priests-in-rome-agree-with.html#links
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-rejects-vatican.html
Wednesday, October 26, 2011
ReplyDeleteNON CATHOLICS CAN BE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, BAPTISM OF DESIRE AND IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Daphne McLeod, Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, England
Vatican Council II does not oppose the centuries old interpretation of the dogma outside the church there is no salvation.
Daphne McLeod yesterday (Oct.25,2011) said that the possibility of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance or with the baptism of desire does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
In an e-mail received yesterday (1) she also said that she had read the reports I sent her especially with reference to the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) and extra ecclesiam nulla salus. She agrees that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire do not contradict the dogma which tells us that every one needs to convert into the Church for salvation.
She said she accepts the possibility of non Catholics being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire (http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2009/10/catholic-church-teaches-muslim-in.html#links).
However it is understood that these cases are known only to God.Non Catholic religions are not paths to salvation and their members need to enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church before and after Vatican Council II.
She is affirming the dogma which Pope Pius XII called ‘the infallible teaching’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).This was the interpretation of the Church Fathers, it was defined at three Church Councils, repeated in the ordinary magisterium of the popes, taught by numerous saints and included in Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7).
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ReplyDeleteDaphne McLeod who has taught for forty years in Catholic Junior and primary schools, daily teaching Religious Education is telling us that all the non-Catholic participants at the Assisi interfaith meeting tomorrow are oriented to Hell and there are no exceptions. This is the official teaching of the Catholic Church according to Magisterial texts.
Daphne McLeod has been a member of the Catholic Evidence Guild, and friend of Frank Sheed and Maisie Ward, she spoke regularly at Speaker’s Corner in Hyde Park. The Chairman of Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, U.K says that non Catholic religions, including those of Protestants and Orthodox Christians are not paths to salvation (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441, Vatican Council II LG 14, AG 7 etc). All non Catholics participating at the Assisi inter faith meeting are lost forever at the time of death unless they convert into the Church. This is not just her personal opinion but it has always been taught by the Catholic Church.
It may be mentioned that finally someone has said it loud and clear. We love all people and seek peace. We also believe that all non Catholics with no exception will go to the fires of Hell. This is not just a personal view but the teaching of the Catholic Church in three defined dogmas and in Vatican Council II.-Lionel Andrades
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ReplyDelete____________________________________________
1.Yes, of course, Lionel. That is what I was always taught about "Outside the Church there is no Salvation" way back when I was at school in the thirties and forties. That is also why we have always had missionaries who gave their lives to teach the Faith.-Daphne McLeod
ASSISI INTERFAITH MEETING OCT.27: OLD PROBLEM AMONG TRADITIONALISTS SURFACE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/assisi-interfaith-meeting-oct27-old.html
SSPX CONSIDERS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE AS DE FACTO KNOWN TO US : DISCERNING LIBERALS MUST BE LAUGHING UP THEIR SLEEVE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/sspx-considers-those-saved-in_24.html
SSPX CONSIDERS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE AS EXCEPTIONS TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS THIS IS HERESY
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/sspx-considers-those-saved-in.html
SSPX IN HERESY CALLS ATTENTION TO HERESY AT ASSISI
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/sspx-in-heresy-calls-attention-to.html#links
SSPX CLARIFY FOR US WHAT IS YOUR DOCTRINAL POSITION ON THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/09/sspx-clarify-for-us-what-is-your.html#links
ARCHBISHOP MARCEL LEFEBVRE CALLED "TO PREACH" THE RIGORIST INTERPRETATION OF "EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS"
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/archbishop-marcel-lefebvre-called-to.html#links
SSPX CLARIFY FOR US WHAT IS YOUR DOCTRINAL POSITION ON THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/09/sspx-clarify-for-us-what-is-your.html#links
NORMS FOR THE TRIDENTINE RITE MASS VIOLATED ?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/norms-for-tridentine-rite-mass-violated.html
Michael Voris Hits the Jackpot…that is, “the dogma”- Brother André Marie MICM :RealCatholicTV affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/09/michael-voris-hits-jackpotthat-is-dogma.html#links
CATHOLIC LAY PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITA EUROPA DI ROMA AFFIRMS DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-lay-professor-at-universita.html
LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html
FR.TULLIO ROTONDO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/frtullio-rotondo-affirms-cantate-domino.html#links
CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS IS DE FIDE AND NOT CONTRADICTED BY VATICAN COUNCIL II- Fr. Nevus Marcello O.P
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/cantate-domino-council-of-florence-on.html
BRAZILIAN PRIEST SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/brazilian-priest-says-vatican-council.html#links
CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME AGREE WITH FR.LEONARD FEENEY: THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/catholic-priests-in-rome-agree-with.html#links
ANGELICUM UNIVERSITY IS CHURNING OUT THEOLOGY DEGREES FOR THOSE WHO SAY FR.LEONARD FEENEY WAS EXCOMMUNICATED FOR REJECTING THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/angelicum-university-is-churning-out.html
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/non-catholics-can-be-saved-in.html
Tuesday, March 20, 2012
ReplyDeleteBishop Fellay, Fr.Schmidberger,FSSP,Joseph Fenton seem unaware the baptism of desire is not an explicit exception to the dogma
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/bishop-fellay-frschmidbergerfsspjoseph.html#links