tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post5340130184706790492..comments2024-03-28T16:16:51.062-04:00Comments on Musings of a Pertinacious Papist: "Falling" out of the priesthood? Please...Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-89899278342905613402011-01-30T23:13:28.615-05:002011-01-30T23:13:28.615-05:00Slight quibble: the secular clergy make promises o...Slight quibble: the secular clergy make promises of celibacy (before subdiaconate) and of obedience (in the ordination ceremony). But is it correct to call them vows?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-22651871262610004702011-01-28T21:09:49.412-05:002011-01-28T21:09:49.412-05:00A contract is a secular (temporal) agreement betwe...A contract is a secular (temporal) agreement between two parties in which goods and/or money are usually exchanged. A sacrament is a bit more than that. Sometimes, at least in the case of matrimony, it is expressed in terms of a covenant, which has been described as an exchange of 'selves' (the spouses give themselves wholly to one another). I can't speak for how this relates to holy orders, except to say that they would seem to involve a good deal more than a mere contract, which typically may be terminated after a job is completed, etc. Like marriage, holy orders entails a lifetime commitment; in this case the donation of self to God and his church.<br /><br />I've heard priestly celibacy called a matter of discipline (which is revisable), as opposed to a matter of dogma (which is not). This would account for the indults for Anglican priests who convert and are ordained Catholic priests although they are married, as well as for the fact that a number of the apostles are described in Scripture as having spouses. On the other hand, there seems to be a strong case for arguing that priestly celibacy has apostolic origins in the sense that St. Paul clearly embodies (and commends) the state for apostolic work, as well as our Lord who commends those who are able to live as eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom, meaning, I take it, for the sacrament of holy orders. <br /><br />Of course, I could be all wet on some of this. So the verdict is out (for me) on whether the norm is simply one of revisable discipline. What do I know?Sheldonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-23074776400335809922011-01-28T16:26:54.073-05:002011-01-28T16:26:54.073-05:00Basically, a man does not have a vocation to the p...Basically, a man does not have a vocation to the priesthood until the Church calls him and ordains him. Celibacy is not part of the sacrament; St. Peter had a mother-in-law and, presumably, a wife. The Roman Catholic Church, however, requires a vow of celibacy and a vow of obedience before it will ordain. Anyone who makes a vows should keep them.Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-1249108646455525652011-01-28T03:19:22.117-05:002011-01-28T03:19:22.117-05:00"And when the contract is a sacrament, the st..."And when the contract is a sacrament, the stakes are higher."<br /><br />Actually, does the sacrament of orders explicitly entail a lifelong commitment? (Also,is it a contract?) Is leaving the priesthood comparable to divorce (where much is made of the lifelong and indissoluble nature of the contract).<br /><br />The ordination ceremony makes no reference to celibacy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-34555700238633782032011-01-27T23:04:10.441-05:002011-01-27T23:04:10.441-05:00Anonymous says:
"The priest is "owned&q...Anonymous says:<br /><br /><i>"The priest is "owned" by the Church?"</i><br /><br />I don't see anyone here talking chattel slavery. But when a guy agrees to a contract, he binds himself to it. And if he breaks his word, he's a worse than a wuss. And when the contract is a sacrament, the stakes are higher.Anon.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-7408855321914925842011-01-27T08:53:05.815-05:002011-01-27T08:53:05.815-05:00There is no Hope when promise and covenant lose al...There is no Hope when promise and covenant lose all meaning.Rogernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-4671967377782338292011-01-27T01:35:17.559-05:002011-01-27T01:35:17.559-05:00The priest is "owned" by the Church? Are...The priest is "owned" by the Church? Are human beings "owned". Priest who writes as Anonymous above is probably a pretty (adv) young priest!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-45526011265130300912011-01-26T19:03:56.530-05:002011-01-26T19:03:56.530-05:00"A Sinner" writes:
It's none of you..."A Sinner" writes:<br /><br /><i>It's none of your business. Why this obsession with trying to tell OTHER men how they can live their lives and trying to stop them from having love (and sex)?</i><br /><br />Don't be silly, Sinner. Nobody is telling anyone how to live. Those who seek ordination do so freely, not through any coercion, and they know up front what is expected of them in the Catholic Church: celibacy. No arm twisting anywhere. <br /><br />The priesthood doesn't belong to you or me but to God and His Church. He established it. It's His. And if the Church Whom He authorized to govern the People of God defines His priesthood for the good of His People as celibate, then that's the way it is. <br /><br />If you want to have your cake and eat it too, go Anglican, or start your own "church." Let the true Church be God's Church.Shirleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-43623917173976943042011-01-26T18:54:45.637-05:002011-01-26T18:54:45.637-05:00The experience of falling in love is overwhelming ...The experience of falling in love is overwhelming for anyone, but especially for a married person. When love for someone else erupts in a married person’s heart, he realizes everything he has worked for is put at risk – his marriage, his reputation, the esteem of his biological children, other married men, his priest and possibly extended family and friends. He may have to divide everything he owns in half, and, sadly, pay alimony and child support as well. On top of all this is the fear of spiritual condemnation by the Church who claims to wield the power of God himself. So, rather than romantic love being a treasured gift from God, it becomes a threat to a married person’s very survival as a married person, and puts him in crisis. Even though they know this, most married persons still yearn for a vivacious breath of fresh air, a person with whom they can have a close, intimate relationship. Besides, she has nice breasts, and I have a hard-on.<br /><br />Honestly, why do such priests suppose the married vocation is nothing but romance and roses, while they endure nothing but toil for the good of souls?Albino Monknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-68286683589747852742011-01-26T14:57:28.923-05:002011-01-26T14:57:28.923-05:00Being a priest I can say that I understand if a fe...Being a priest I can say that I understand if a fellow cleric says, "I am weak and wrong. I am leaving, but I won't try to justify it." I can even understand if a priest develops "feelings" for a woman. But he knows he can't act on them any more then a married man can act on "feelings" he might have for a woman he isn't married too. <br /><br />We make a promise. Even if a priest should fail that doesn't mean the promise doesn't exist. He needs to go to confession, get spiritual direction, renew his prayer life, and soldier on. No whining. Every guy in seminary knows the score. Ordination includes celibacy. If you can't take it then tell the rector and move on. No harm in that, but don't play games.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-16892352361589420282011-01-26T02:37:08.843-05:002011-01-26T02:37:08.843-05:00What is it with you people?? It's none of your...What is it with you people?? It's none of your business. Why this obsession with trying to tell OTHER men how they can live their lives and trying to stop them from having love (and sex)? It usually comes from those are sexually frustrated themselves...A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-70775505294230280192011-01-25T21:40:22.768-05:002011-01-25T21:40:22.768-05:00Maudlin? Not so sure. I found it illuminating and ...Maudlin? Not so sure. I found it illuminating and human.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-7927467567878031522011-01-25T20:07:27.520-05:002011-01-25T20:07:27.520-05:00Maybe these depressed and discouraged priests shou...Maybe these depressed and discouraged priests should try slacklining.Ralph Roister-Doisternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6312447.post-36937670451490175722011-01-25T15:57:11.873-05:002011-01-25T15:57:11.873-05:00Philip:
Here's a blog which is discussing (fr...Philip:<br /><br />Here's a blog which is discussing (from an Anglican perspective) the Ordinariate and the effect it will have on Catholic teaching.<br /><br /><br />elizaphanian.blogspot.com.<br /><br />The owner is family, after a fashion: he's my cousin's husband.<br /><br />God bless,<br /><br />ChrisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com